EMRFD Message Archive 238

Message Date From Subject
238 2006-12-18 07:56:43 S. Cash Olsen Fw: [QRP-L] THE ARRL KILLED MY DOG!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Kennedy" <nick-wa5bdu@suddenlink.net>
To: <qrp-l@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:03 AM
Subject: [QRP-L] THE ARRL KILLED MY DOG!!!


> Actually, that's not true. But I needed an attention-getting subject
> line to compete with all the other stuff going on. My real subject is:
>
> Cast Adrift: VFO stability or lack thereof
>
>
> I'm piddling with the PotLuck project to see if I can actually build
> something by late May. I was thinking of a sort of generic 20M CW
> transceiver. But I'm a little wary since with a 4.915MHz IF, the VFO
> needs to be up over 9MHz. Will I have drift problems?
>
> First, what's my criterion for acceptable drift? Well, I'm not after
> state of the art; I figure if the guy on the other end doesn't notice
> I'm drifting, then for practical purposed, I'm not drifting. So maybe
> less than 100 Hz max in a 5 minute transmission, just sort of a rough
> number.
>
> Decided to try a basic Colpitts circuit from SSDRA, but with a varicap
> added for tuning and also base biasing, which oddly, was not shown in
> the book. The device is a 2N3904 and I built it Manhattan style. Caps
> are NPO except some kind of poly-whatever for bypassing Vcc. The
> inductor in the tank is a dash-7 (white) iron powder toroid.
>
> On initial testing, it drifted like crazy. No need to measure, because
> we're talking kilocycles in a short time. Part of the issue is that the
> output comes off the emitter, which is also where the critical voltage
> divider connects. So just the cable to the counter added lots of drifty
> C. Monitoring in the receiver is the best way to view drift. I do
> realize I'll need some serious buffering in the final version. But it
> still drifts too much with no load physically connected.
>
> OK, first round of bright ideas. I'm using a double sided board. Maybe
> the capacitance to the bottom is having some effect. So I connected the
> top and bottom foils together. Also, there are lots of sneaky little
> warm and cold air currents in the house in December. So I put the thing
> in a candy tin with tight fitting lid. I wrapped the board in bubble
> wrap for insulation and brought the supply leads (regulated 8VDC) in
> through a small hole. Wow! Now the drift is much worse. Just
> approaching the can with my hand makes it go nuts. So as a slight
> revision, I solder the common lead to the can at the point of entry.
> Now the drift is merely horrible. Also disconnected the varicap. And
> the trimmer next to the inductor replaced with a fixed NPO. No help.
>
> Maybe one of the caps is suspect. So I just replace the whole lot--the
> two voltage dividers, the blocking/coupling cap from tank to base, the
> tank range-setting cap, the output cap, the blocking cap from the
> varicap--all from a different batch. Still drifts too much. Some has
> to be blamed on all the soldering going on, but even after an hour or
> two warm-up and stabilization, it's no good.
>
> Next bright idea is the Manhattan pads. I generally use them about 3/16
> in diameter or so, but at the base I used a rectangular chunk about 1/4
> by 3/8 inch due to all the connections. I had measured earlier that a
> 1/4 inch diameter pad would have C of about 1 pF. Not a lot in general
> terms, but also not very temperature stable. I had built up a
> spreadsheet that simplifies all the series and parallel C in my circuit
> to the equivalent in parallel with the inductor and finally figures the
> resonant frequency with the tank coil. So how much difference would say
> 0.1pF make at the base? Turns out it was over a kilocycle. So maybe
> all these pads, especially the big one, are causing problems. I got
> some neat little gold terminals on Teflon base from Dan's, so I busted
> off the base pad, drilled a hole and epoxied in a standoff terminal to
> replace it. Back to testing, drift may have improved, but it's still
> way too much. Maybe 500 Hz in 10 minutes or so. But I still have some
> more pads in critical spots.
>
> That's where I am now. I'm waiting for the glue to dry on a terminal
> replacing the pad at the emitter / voltage divider junction. I also got
> an electrical 4-inch handy-box to mount the thing in, for magnetic
> shielding and a bit of thermal isolation. This replaces the candy tin.
>
> Any suggestions? It's always something I've left out, although I've
> tried to tell all. Supply is 8VDC regulated. Biasing is for about 4mA.
> Biasing resistors are 11k and 15k, emitter resistor is 1000 ohms.
>
> 72--Nick, WA5BDU
>
> No dogs were harmed in the composing of this post.
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> QRP-L mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/qrp-l
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:QRP-L@mailman.qth.net
>
239 2006-12-18 09:41:00 Joe Rocci Re: Fw: [QRP-L] THE ARRL KILLED MY DOG!!!
In addtion to the component & construction issues you already raised, you might also want to reconsider the bias point. The 4 ma is fine, but with 1K in the emitter, you're losing half of your 8V supply voltage in the emitter resistor, which means the transistor Vce is only 4 volts. At low voltages, the internal junction capacitances are higher, which means they'll probably change more with junction heating, affecting the overall resonant frequency. I'd suggest re-biasing to put only about 1 volt across the emitter resistor, but maintaining the nice low 4ma current.
 
Also as you're already finding out, sometimes "ugly" construction is better that "manhattan" construction, for the reasons you cited.
 
Joe
W3JDR
 
 
----- Original Message -----
240 2006-12-18 10:33:39 ks1u Re: Fw: [QRP-L] THE ARRL KILLED MY DOG!!!
Nick:
     Although it would be possible to build a driftless vfo above 9 MHz, why not build one operating about 4.5 MHz and then use a doubler?
 
George 
241 2006-12-18 11:20:05 Joe Rocci Re: Fw: [QRP-L] THE ARRL KILLED MY DOG!!!
>Although it would be possible to build a driftless vfo above 9 MHz, why not build one operating about 4.5 MHz and then use a doubler?
------------------------------
 
Drift will be about the same. Any drift at the lower frequency will be doubled. The major advantage of starting at lower frequencies and then multiplying is to obtain isolation from from the load to the oscillator.
 
Joe
W3JDR
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
242 2006-12-18 11:36:39 Robert Cerreto Re: Fw: [QRP-L] THE ARRL KILLED MY DOG!!!
I just finished a VFO for "Potluck". It drifts less than 5Hz/Hr after a 10 minute warmup. The first 10 mins it drifts 40Hz.

I am assuming that your drift is upward in frequency. Here are some of my experiences:

1. Varicaps are very drifty if not compensated. They are OK without compensation over a very small range . Good old variable caps are much better. If you must use a varicap, I believe you must not let it conduct in the forward direction.

2. Make sure the coupling cap from the transistor base to the tuned circuit is as small as possible. Reduce it's size until the oscillator will no longer start reliably. This was the biggest contributor to my drift problem.

3. You biasing is a little light. Try for about 10MA Ic

4. Double sided board is a big non no.

5. I have had good luck with manhatten pads (single sided on single sided board) . My favorite technique (and most reliable) though is islands cut into single sided board. It's ugly too, but, it works.

6. Even with NPO's you will have drift. Make about 40% of your total capacitance needed for resonance N150 caps. Patience here. You will have to try various combinations of NPO's, N150's, and parallel caps until you get the drift under control. If you are using "surplus" or "bargain" caps, don't believe or trust their markings.

7. If you need a 100pf cap, use two 50Pf in parallel. Spread the capacitance over several caps.

8. Coat your Toroid with Q-dope or equivelent.

9. Mount ALL parts solidly.

10. For higher frequencies, doublers work well. But, you may have to amplify their output  depending on the type of mixer you are using.

11. Be carefull how you measure. Your test equipment can load down the oscillator causing instabilities. More than likel, you'll need some filtering after the buffer amp(s).

12. Buffer amps are a must. Couple the oscillator to the amp with no more than 33pf. Bias the amp for linear operation.

13. Even low frequency VFO's can oscillate at a higher frequency at the same time as oscillating at the desired frequency. This adds to the instability. Decouple your power supply well.

Hope this helps. If you have any more specific questions please do not hesitate to EMAIL me.

72 es 73,
Bob WA!FXT
tonybob@adelphia.net

"S. Cash Olsen" wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Kennedy" <nick-wa5bdu@ suddenlink. net>
To: <qrp-l@mailman. qth.net>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:03 AM
Subject: [QRP-L] THE ARRL KILLED MY DOG!!!

> Actually, that's not true. But I needed an attention-getting subject
> line to compete with all the other stuff going on. My real subject is:
>
> Cast Adrift: VFO stability or lack thereof
>
>
> I'm piddling with the PotLuck project to see if I can actually build
> something by late May. I was thinking of a sort of generic 20M CW
> transceiver. But I'm a little wary since with a 4.915MHz IF, the VFO
> needs to be up over 9MHz. Will I have drift problems?
>
> First, what's my criterion for acceptable drift? Well, I'm not after
> state of the art; I figure if the guy on the other end doesn't notice
> I'm drifting, then for practical purposed, I'm not drifting. So maybe
> less than 100 Hz max in a 5 minute transmission, just sort of a rough
> number.
>
> Decided to try a basic Colpitts circuit from SSDRA, but with a varicap
> added for tuning and also base biasing, which oddly, was not shown in
> the book. The device is a 2N3904 and I built it Manhattan style. Caps
> are NPO except some kind of poly-whatever for bypassing Vcc. The
> inductor in the tank is a dash-7 (white) iron powder toroid.
>
> On initial testing, it drifted like crazy. No need to measure, because
> we're talking kilocycles in a short time. Part of the issue is that the
> output comes off the emitter, which is also where the critical voltage
> divider connects. So just the cable to the counter added lots of drifty
> C. Monitoring in the receiver is the best way to view drift. I do
> realize I'll need some serious buffering in the final version. But it
> still drifts too much with no load physically connected.
>
> OK, first round of bright ideas. I'm using a double sided board. Maybe
> the capacitance to the bottom is having some effect. So I connected the
> top and bottom foils together. Also, there are lots of sneaky little
> warm and cold air currents in the house in December. So I put the thing
> in a candy tin with tight fitting lid. I wrapped the board in bubble
> wrap for insulation and brought the supply leads (regulated 8VDC) in
> through a small hole. Wow! Now the drift is much worse. Just
> approaching the can with my hand makes it go nuts. So as a slight
> revision, I solder the common lead to the can at the point of entry.
> Now the drift is merely horrible. Also disconnected the varicap. And
> the trimmer next to the inductor replaced with a fixed NPO. No help.
>
> Maybe one of the caps is suspect. So I just replace the whole lot--the
> two voltage dividers, the blocking/coupling cap from tank to base, the
> tank range-setting cap, the output cap, the blocking cap from the
> varicap--all from a different batch. Still drifts too much. Some has
> to be blamed on all the soldering going on, but even after an hour or
> two warm-up and stabilization, it's no good.
>
> Next bright idea is the Manhattan pads. I generally use them about 3/16
> in diameter or so, but at the base I used a rectangular chunk about 1/4
> by 3/8 inch due to all the connections. I had measured earlier that a
> 1/4 inch diameter pad would have C of about 1 pF. Not a lot in general
> terms, but also not very temperature stable. I had built up a
> spreadsheet that simplifies all the series and parallel C in my circuit
> to the equivalent in parallel with the inductor and finally figures the
> resonant frequency with the tank coil. So how much difference would say
> 0.1pF make at the base? Turns out it was over a kilocycle. So maybe
> all these pads, especially the big one, are causing problems. I got
> some neat little gold terminals on Teflon base from Dan's, so I busted
> off the base pad, drilled a hole and epoxied in a standoff terminal to
> replace it. Back to testing, drift may have improved, but it's still
> way too much. Maybe 500 Hz in 10 minutes or so. But I still have some
> more pads in critical spots.
>
> That's where I am now. I'm waiting for the glue to dry on a terminal
> replacing the pad at the emitter / voltage divider junction. I also got
> an electrical 4-inch handy-box to mount the thing in, for magnetic
> shielding and a bit of thermal isolation. This replaces the candy tin.
>
> Any suggestions? It's always something I've left out, although I've
> tried to tell all. Supply is 8VDC regulated. Biasing is for about 4mA.
> Biasing resistors are 11k and 15k, emitter resistor is 1000 ohms.
>
> 72--Nick, WA5BDU
>
> No dogs were harmed in the composing of this post.
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> QRP-L mailing list
> Home: http://mailman. qth.net/mailman/ listinfo/ qrp-l
> Help: http://mailman. qth.net/mmfaq. htm
> Post: mailto:QRP-L@mailman. qth.net
>

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243 2006-12-18 11:53:51 ks1u Re: Fw: [QRP-L] THE ARRL KILLED MY DOG!!!
Joe:
     Yes, the drift will be doubled, and the major advantage is isolation and mechanical stability. Perhaps it's just coincidence or component choices, but the vfos I've built at 4MHz and below have all seemed to drift much less than those at 7MHz and higher.   I try to use air wound  or ceramic inductors as well as high quality caps etc. regardless of the frequency, however, to be candid I've never really tried to find whether the drift difference I have noticed is unique to my projects for some reason other than frequency. 
73
George